Joe Rogan says thank you to the haters
While in New Zealand for dissertation data collection, I struck up a conversation with a local over breakfast. As is common while traveling abroad, when a foreign accent is detected, the curious want to know where you're from and why you're visiting. The local man and I were both seated at the bar of a coffee shop, and the conversation sparked by him recommending a breakfast dish to order. Most Kiwis, as New Zealanders lovingly call themselves, including my interviewees, wanted to talk to me about Donald Trump. I was collecting data amidst the 2018 mid-term election, and small talk often centered around American politics.
The man at the coffee shop asked about my research, after explaining my purpose for visiting his country, then we moved onto discussing tribalism in politics. Social media came up, and he shared stories about some Silicone Valley types he knew with houses in New Zealand. Notably, how they spend their free time enjoying nature and don't allow their kids on social media. We both agreed that we should probably take our cues from them. Then we started talking about Sebastian Junger's book, Tribe. I had not read the book, but we both had listened to his interview on the Joe Rogan Experience.
Two people from quite literally opposite sides of the world were able to have an intelligent conversation because we listened to the same podcast. I remember thinking then: Joe Rogan is a powerful force.
Alas, according to CNN, neither my conversant nor I are enlightened. We foolishly believe that Rogan and his podcast guests are good for our informational diet. We may know that Doritos are bad for us, but for some reason we're too dim to realize that Rogan's podcast is bad for us. And, even more, we are internalizing the misinformation presented on the podcast and making bad decisions. We'd be better off, so says CNN, listening to the New York Times' "the Daily" or reading the Wall Street Journal.
The CNN segment was in response to Neil Young and Joni Mitchell leaving Spotify in protest of the Joe Rogan Experience. The video lacks awareness about reality or the contents of Rogan's podcast and is laced with assumptions about his listeners. CNN has the right opinion, while Joe Rogan and his listeners do not.Â
When faced with mounting criticism, warranted or not, such as this, many get defensive, bite back, or retreat, throwing others under the bus. Rogan did none of these. After Young and Mitchell opted to remove their music from Spotify's platform in protest of his podcast and others like it, Rogan released a video to his listeners that displayed intellectual humility, charitable characterizations of his critics, a willingness to stand behind his podcast guests, and a pledge to do better.
Intellectual humility is a noticeable trait of Rogan. To be sure, he asserts his opinion and can be quite brash, but during any given episode of the Joe Rogan Experience you're likely to hear him utter phrases such as "I'm a dummy" while conversing with guests on topics about which he knows little. Obviously, he's no dummy, but he knows when to admit his knowledge is limited. Amidst the most recent controversy surrounding two episodes in particular, one with Dr. Robert Malone and one with Dr. Peter McCullough, he admits that he doesn't know whether their views are right: "I'm not a doctor, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a person who sits down and talks to people and has conversations with them." And he acknowledges that the balance of views presented on his podcast might not be perfect: "Do I get things wrong? ABSOLUTELY, I get things wrong."
Rogan recognizes that he is fallible, as all humans are. We all get things wrong from time to time, and we don't, and can't, know everything. As Rogan points out in the video to his listeners, what was yesterday's misinformation might very well be today's fact: "many of the things that we thought of as misinformation just a short while ago are now accepted as fact." He provides examples such as the transmissibility of COVID-19 once vaccinated, the efficacy of cloth masks, and whether it's possible that COVID-19 was leaked from a lab. He notes that each of these were once considered misinformation and ban-able offenses on social media but are now openly discussed. COVID-19 is a new problem. What we think to be true changes frequently, and new pieces of evidence are continuously emerging. Although initial solutions may seem right in the moment, the questions regarding how to solve the problems arising from this novel virus are not settled.
As a modern-day version of John Stuart Mill might ask, what if Dr. Malone and Dr. McCullough, and others considered fringe, are right?
Mill, a 19th century English philosopher, made three central arguments in his famous essay "On Liberty" for the free exchange of ideas and against censoring seemingly fringe perspectives: First, the fringe perspective might be right. Second, if a perspective is never challenged, we can't be certain whether it's right or wrong. And third, when perspectives conflict, the truth is likely somewhere in between.
Censoring ideas is unlikely to bring us closer to the truth but bringing them into the light might. The Joe Rogan Experience is one model of what this process looks like, as are the many podcasts that have followed his lead. Certainly, some viewpoints go unheard, and Rogan readily admits that he doesn't always get it right. But inviting guest from diverse backgrounds with varying perspectives, and being open to the possibility that they have a piece of the truth, is certainly better for truth-seeking than suppressing divergent views.
Intellectual humility and charity go hand-in-hand. Public figures, like the pundits on CNN, writing off those they disagree with as wrongheaded or unenlightened has become all-too common. Rogan took a different approach. He expressed his regret that Neil Young and Joni Mitchell removed their music from Spotify because of the views expressed on his podcast, and regret that Spotify must endure artists leaving their platform because of his podcast. Instead of attacking critics like Young, he tells a heartwarming story of working as a security guard for a venue while Young was playing. He extends an olive branch to his haters, even going so far as to thank them with sincerity: "[T]hank you to the haters. Because it's good to have some haters, it makes you reassess what you're doing and put things into perspective, and I think that's good too." After all, the haters might have the other part of the truth.
I take Rogan's response to the recent controversy as sincere; I have no reason to think otherwise. And we can argue about whether he should have apologized or ceded ground at all. But love Rogan or hate him, his response models what it looks like to be intellectually humble and charitable to critics. Understanding how the world works and figuring out the truth is messy. People will make mistakes in the process, but listening to a range of perspectives, working through ideas in the open, inviting criticism, and admitting when one is wrong and correcting mistakes is the best way to pursue the truth.